之前我一直说PES的宣传和实际游戏画面有很大出入，当时有说我瞎喷，请解释 图片附件

mondrovic

其实我没跳出“玩家”的身份，但是美食吃多了，新奇的东西吃多了，口味绝对会变刁的。这个没办法
我和 ...
zxt1222 发表于 2013-10-27 18:07

   Watch your mouth, the amount you eat doesn't automatically speaks for your level of aptitude in judgement, not to mention THE connoisseur status that few people in this gaming field/forum deserve to be associated with. Speaking of Connoisseur,Ratatouille the film might provide you some revelation; Yes, there's even a connoisseur in the film~

dianzhang1983

其实，我真正想说，空了我们约几场2013吧。。。mondrovicc，（两个C）。游戏毕竟是拿来玩的。。。
mondrovic 发表于 2013-10-27 18:30

   天都网通20m，不知你重庆那边网络如何，我有空加你。

mondrovic

天都网通20m，不知你重庆那边网络如何，我有空加你。
dianzhang1983 发表于 2013-10-27 18:51

   天都是哪里。。。天津？我是重庆电信ADSL 4M。。。估计歇菜～

zxt1222

Watch your mouth, the amount you eat doesn't automatically speaks for your level of aptitud ...
mondrovic 发表于 2013-10-27 18:40

Never think myself a connoisseur ，Just a soccer game nerd who always complains or try to analyze（YY:bz36: ）.
As a consumer having experience of more than a dozen of different soccer games, I am just complaining and looking forward.
I think I am discreet enough in expression and only focus on features of GAME.（comparing with some righteous connoisseur engaging in upholding justice after trying one or several games:bz36: ）

zxt1222

Watch your mouth, the amount you eat doesn't automatically speaks for your level of aptitud ...
mondrovic 发表于 2013-10-27 18:40

对了，不知道当时你有没有尝试过，football kingdom的demo。 这款游戏在你看来如何？

dianzhang1983

嗯，上海英语和重庆英语不相上下，一些从句的用法基本符合语法规范，不过还是用中文比较好一点，。。。
是不是权威其实不重要，玩家yy本身也没错，各自的追求都有道理，自得其乐总没错，自己人就不要拐着弯地互相捧杀了。。。。

zxt1222

嗯，上海英语和重庆英语不相上下，一些从句的用法基本符合语法规范，不过还是用中文比较好一点，。。。
是 ...
dianzhang1983 发表于 2013-10-27 23:05

我这蹩脚的英语就算了:bz36: 也就是只能看 很少写的货

游戏对于个人来说就是娱乐
而论坛么，还是要有良性讨论的宽松氛围+广阔的视野的。


而权威这个词在现在的大环境中就是偏贬义了，大家真的是躲之不及了。
真的有人愿意理性的担当起封口浪尖的“权威”反倒是有意义的
但是这个大环境下谁愿意呢:bz36: 愿意的，又能服多少人呢？
痛打出头鸟是喜闻乐见的娱乐节目:bz3:

我的期望真不高，不论观点如何，大家都能像前面这样正常回帖交流，正常说话，就很好了。
变成“有态度”的某某有才网那样的氛围以后，可就难回头了:bz36:

dianzhang1983

我这蹩脚的英语就算了 也就是只能看 很少写的货

游戏对于个人来说就是娱乐
而论坛么，还是要 ...
zxt1222 发表于 2013-10-27 23:27

    其实吧，你在这个坛子坚持了11年而金枪不倒，这个着实让人敬佩，你做大神偶而配合着娱乐一下大众（就搞一些一虎一席谈之类的吵架娱乐节目也挺好的）不过就怕结下个人恩怨，太入戏就不好玩了。。。
     我是来帮你一起搞笑滴。。。。顺大便调节一下戏路，好了闪人。。。

zxt1222

好吧，其实我举车的那个例子，本身算是调侃。。。潜台词中已经包含了以往各类科幻作品的先例，我也 ...
mondrovic 发表于 2013-10-27 17:53

对于最后蓝字的例子，其实正好解释了我的态度啊。
在业界市面上不缺乏成熟性、完整性的作品的时期，我更喜欢关注实验性、前瞻性的东西。

实验性、前瞻性的东西是否实用、是否可以民用这些元素对于我这类玩家的来说都不是必要的。
能尽早的体验到创新和创意的体验，能给我带来更多的乐趣。

所以按照你的例子，我日常选车开车自然选择稳妥成熟的搭配，而玩游戏反而要去试试这种不一定成熟的新东西


玩家的需求差异可是天差地别的。。。比如gta、无双系列、。骑砍、老滚、辐射、文明、Paradox社的作品、还有N多独立游戏
其玩点可以说大相径庭，但是各自都能满足相应的玩家。

举一个例子，steam上的独立游戏 《paper,please》评分貌似媒体8.6，玩家评分9.0 。
但是既没有优良的画面、音效，也没有友好的上手度，完成度也很低。
而且很多玩家觉得这个游戏过程十分枯燥无味，就像无聊的工作一样，有啥意思？。。。。

“玩点”不对味的游戏就是如此，但是还是有“玩点”对味的玩家。。。

mondrovic

Never think myself a connoisseur ，Just a soccer game nerd who always complains or try to analyze（ ...
zxt1222 发表于 2013-10-27 21:19

Just the comparisons with food you had briefly used reminded me of connoisseur and etc. No, you are not a connoisseur, you are actually more of a self-indulged and self-imaged-Sports Game-testing-programmer-like abnormal/alternative gamer, who could even afford to give up the fundamental pursue of happy and decent gaming experience in exchange for whatever novel trivialities that might tickle your curious G spot-like "tastebud" (dont take this profiling too seriously though, i like to tease as when writing in Chinese)
I really admire your inquisitional attitude and your zealous care for the tiny details, especially when such inquiries haven't blurred your vision for the bigger picture, though sadly enough, this is usually NOT the case; still your attitude(not THE attitude when defending your views) alone deserves all due respect. It's your perspective that I disagree and always hope to bring into reconciliation by containing it into some prerequisites for analysis(and even for complaining) that we might all agree upon. (For the same prerequisites, I say no to 2011 and refuse to express further opinions on 2014, whereas your current prerequisites presiding all your comments all come down to a single a phrase: devil's in the details, which I find of course rather discriminating and too CARELESS when it comes to a comprehensive analysis of certain game title, or a series of a certain title, such as, winning eleven, especially when put under consideration over a time span of 15 years or more )

Speaking of your discreetness in expression/attitude, it is surely what it is; yet this precise discreetness/vagueness in attitude towards certain games actually annoys me more than the convincing part it PRETENDS to achieve. When I examined 2014, I held/hid an overall negative attitude while pretending certain discreetness in my expression, ONLY to avoid drawing back those stinky motherfuckers. In comparison, since long time ago, I have sensed certain reservation in your attitude towards 2013 and now the similar vagueness towards 2014. I like 2013 very much, discreet as I tried in my expression, I do wish other people to see my conclusive attitude, so is my negative response towards 2014 that you can clearly see. Yet I cant see the same directness in your attitude,  even up to this day, I dont really know how you see 2013 and 2014, whether you like them on the whole or you dislike them... This is what I mean annoyance. I understand you dont like to piss off other "fragile" gamers either (who unfortunately get pissed off too easily most of the time), but such vagueness, in my opinion, might have more to do with your habitual ignorance of a bigger picture and definitive verdict for a certain title. When it comes to argument or analysis, conclusion/verdict surely matter, dont they? Or what are we arguing for after all? There's no shame in arguing for your opinion with thorough analysis, I always seek to express myself thoroughly, to convince or to be convinced(sadly still, I dont find too many convincing arguments in this forum that I can really learn from up to this day, I surely hope this is only caused by my own ignorance and naivete, but just like I used to say in Chinese, I am afraid I am wrong).

Last but not least, be careful when you say that you "just like to complain and....", complain without a (righteous) cause/evidence or complain out of old habits (it seems to me you have unfortunately fallen into both realms) doesnt endow one with immunity from counter-argument/complain.

Still I will once again seek to bring certain reconciliation to our often disagreeing perspectives, provided that you can applause with me one last time to WE2013-the best WE title ever and to enjoy games like a normal gamer ever after (I am even considerate enough to skip 2011, not to mention 2014, the best two SM para-simulator titles for all the high-flying idiots; Wasnt someone just talking about consumer mentality? To me, KONAMI might be the king of consumer mentality to bring hardcore SM contents to an all-age sports game, sucking all the perverts in, and letting them unleash all SM instincts with a self-deceiving righteous style. Profesionally, this is what we call Niche Marketing~ )

mondrovic

对了，不知道当时你有没有尝试过，football kingdom的demo。 这款游戏在你看来如何？
zxt1222 发表于 2013-10-27 21:25

   没有，我只玩过WE和FIFA，还有SFC上面的某款游戏，严格地说，我只是一个WE玩家，即便1998-2000期间我玩的是FIFA。

mondrovic

对于最后蓝字的例子，其实正好解释了我的态度啊。
在业界市面上不缺乏成熟性、完整性的作品的时期，我更 ...
zxt1222 发表于 2013-10-27 23:47

实验和前瞻我肯定也不会拒绝，但同样需要纳入大前提的思考之中（突然间大前提用着相当顺手啊，就像2013的单刀搓射一样。。。但认真地说，我始终认为各种因素的考量需要有个主次之分）。W12也就是搏君一笑的定位，当真了，太过投入了就完全没有意义了，毕竟GOLF的意义更多在于1.4T，甚至两款2.0T都只能算是ALTERNATIVES。
BTW, I dont know how you actually see yourself as a xxx(yet another point of vagueness), but I see myself as devoted (not unconditionally loyal) WE gamer without alternative( WE or none, for reasons I have convinced already myself but definitely not others including you and other two-title gamers, <Gosh, there are really two-title gamers in this world, dont they worry about getting schizophrenia or they already have?> so i am not gonna further elaborate until FIFA really BEGAN to produce football game with fundamental football mentality).

zxt1222

Just the comparisons with food you had briefly used reminded me of connoisseur and etc. No, yo ...
mondrovic 发表于 2013-10-27 23:50

devil's in the details X
in soccer games，deviation is always caused by dribble details  √

deviation 并不一定等于devil

其实我对pes2013的态度很早就明确地说过了，
不得不要从几个方面看它

1）首先整体上绝对是实况当时的最优作品（不论从我的视角、还是大众视角看都是这个结论）
AI的复杂度和水平、战术体系和前面的作品比较都有明显的相对优势


2）然后是基础元素方面，这里也要一分为二
我很坚定的认为2013不如之前的2011的扎实（2011的问题很多，但是大部分集中在于判定偏颇和游戏体验不好，而基础的步点、盘带惯性模拟、动作幅度等等都是更为写实的） 这是站在我的视角、以及我所认为的长期发展趋势角度看的

而对于玩家体验来说，毫无疑问，2013明显更好。
但是这里我必须要再说一下，玩家觉得好的元素，会是当时好游戏的好元素，但是不一定是正确的路子，更不是这个方面停滞不前的理由
我并不强求当时违背原理的搭配（非要出一个偏科的怪胎），但是我也不希望看到一个有能力却磨洋工的制作者（比如某几年的EA）。

3）pes2013的数值分档、判定设计、战术设定的教程等等问题上还是有很多老问题没解决，一定程度上非常没有必要的让大众游戏体验有所下降
（比如飞机问题，K社完全可以用多种诱导方式解决）

综合来看，2013整体上我是十分认可的，但是可见的上升余地还是很大。我个人角度对于基础元素和判定有意见，

mondrovic

其实吧，你在这个坛子坚持了11年而金枪不倒，这个着实让人敬佩，你做大神偶而配合着娱乐一下大众（ ...
dianzhang1983 发表于 2013-10-27 23:40

   I never seek to FIGHT others, I always seek to convince others(after convincing myself, or call it hypnotizing), so there's no need to worry about any friendly fire between me and him; But I do unleash my wrath upon those motherfuckers who ask to be humiliated, names of whom too renowned to be quoted here.
    One good thing about thinking and writing in English, for me, is to jump out of certain inertia to form even clearer points of view.

    Surely, another plus side of such exotic thinking as I mentioned earlier is to avoid drawing crowns and suckers unnecessarily.

zxt1222

没有，我只玩过WE和FIFA，还有SFC上面的某款游戏，严格地说，我只是一个WE玩家，即便1998-2000期间 ...
mondrovic 发表于 2013-10-27 23:59

我也不不知道你对we8的态度和印象
足球王国这款游戏和we8基本同一个时期，不知道你看了视频以后，结合对we8的影响会有什么感想。



另外，你也要理解我这样的玩家的心理形成的原因

通常其实我们原生态是一个完美主义者（+一点守旧主义），总是会在一段时间内全身心投入某一个游戏，不带疑惑 （比如我最早fc足球，然后是各类PC足球游戏，后来fifa,后来we 那时候通常没什么双修时段的，拿起一个就放下另一个）

但是到了某一个特定阶段，特别是遇到百花争鸣的时期的时候，会特别的混乱矛盾。 因为多个游戏中都有吸引自己的“玩点”，也都有无法忽视的缺点。
你要知道，作为完美主义者，有一点点不能直视的缺点的话，那都是过不去的心结。  （我就曾经心里一票否决过we6
fe，曾经对we8有很大的成见，现在看看也都有些可笑）
在这种状态下，完全无法投身去享受游戏，去享受玩点。

所以长此以往下来，我们只能锻炼自己对于"缺点"的包容度，这样就能更多的体会到“玩点”，不影响自己的游戏心情。
这种锻炼到了一定程度以后，就形成了习惯，这样有利于让自己保持的尝试新东西的积极性，保持兴奋度。

特别是足球游戏这种1年1座的系列，追求高成熟、高平衡我觉得可能是5年一度的大计划
而每年我的基础要求就是有新东西，有进步的东西。看到兴奋点，让我兴奋几个月，可以了