之前我一直说PES的宣传和实际游戏画面有很大出入，当时有说我瞎喷，请解释 图片附件

mondrovic

devil's in the details X
deviation is always caused by dribble details  √

其实我对pes2013的 ...
zxt1222 发表于 2013-10-28 00:17

"deviation is always caused by dribble details  √"

Where's the (fucking) bigger picture, the prerequisites, ay, mate? Gosh I really like these handy "prerequisites" now...


Honestly and seriously, I really don't see dribble details that much of a big matter; Yes such details matter, but to me they just matter slightly more than the bracelets Adriano wears, especially when you look at the PRE-REQUISITES (lol). I do wish to have precise dribbling and full-framed motions, but when it's too hard to achieve in current generation, and when they dont affect the OVERALL gaming experience, especially PVP experience (or bigger picture, lol), why all the fuss anyway??


When the day comes that all motions are precisely and correctly simulated, I'd be surely equally happy as you are(just like my flying UFO vehicle) , but for now, let's just sit back and enjoy the best they can offer(for me it's the best KONAMI can offer), and surely, never forget to look at the bigger picture~

zxt1222

"deviation is always caused by dribble details  √"

Where's the (fucking) bigger picture, the ...
mondrovic 发表于 2013-10-28 00:43

至于“为什么最基本的盘带（或者说人球关系）会自下而上的影响到游戏本质问题”
在这个论坛由于这个话题已经争论过很多次了。

这真是一个长篇文章，我要用中文解释+配图+配视频，就要不下万字了  （not to mention in English...）

所以我暂时只能用最简单直接、也是我最常用的一个例子说一下。

从PES2009到PES2013为止，我都用存档编辑器做过各种千奇百怪的数据上的global edit （所有球员全加或全减）
本意是用于测试游戏数值的作用。（分别作定量和定性，尝试确定分段函数）
但是实际上却发现了，盘带精度、盘带速度、加速度/敏捷性这些数值对于AI，甚至整个游戏的表现有着颠覆性的改变。（我也做过一些写实化存档的尝试）
有一些数据的关联性你可能都意想不到。 比如，盘带速度和射门质量有关。

然后我再有目的性的通过慢动作观察原因，最后总结出了，盘带向上决定判定、判定决定AI的基本规律。

mondrovic

我也不不知道你对we8的态度和印象
足球王国这款游戏和we8基本同一个时期，不知道你看了视频以后，结合对 ...
zxt1222 发表于 2013-10-28 00:26

Actually, I think I have forgotten my WE8 experience already (when they said WE8 the best, I wondered, what WE8? fuck...), which year was it on?~ I think the last WE installment on PS2 was the best for that platform (similar logic as 2013).And I am not going to watch the videos you posted, because since I am only focused on WE or none others, there's no need to re-examine all the un-sung details, right? Especially there's 2013 to linger with.
I do like you analysis on the "forming years"; seriously speaking, I was never too serious a gamer (therefore I was easily ready to discard 2011 and ignore 2014), but ironically and paradoxically, i am also a perfectionist, probably more intolerant than you are(so the hell with 2014, the hell with rugby fifa when it all depends on strict data scripting and phony marketing, I had my lessons in marketing, thank you, but no, thanks), and I am a perfectionist with PRE-REQUISTES, 2013 to my great joy, fits perfectly into almost all my judgement frames(thus i could afford to overlook its non-principle flaws, be there any).

Probably in certain respects, you've already seen some "bigger picture" earlier than i have, but you've given in too early to your "lust for blood(or promiscuous gaming behavious)", whereas i was relatively stubbornly naive/purist(with prerequisites, of course...lol). But isnt it actually a great happiness nowadays to be a naive gamer to simply immerse in joy and excitement the game brings and forget all the over-sophisticated demands we were spoiled to harbour? Didnt Plato say that the nature of game(playing) is to return to the state of naivete? (No actually he didnt, but some other philosopher said so, or maybe he did, I am not sure....).In this respect I THANK 2013 for enabling me for a while once again to put down my sophistication since the WE upheaval on PS3 to return to a naive(indulged) gamer; it's even getting philosophical now isn't it(I really didnt expect that)? Maybe you should consider such a return sometime , as i have suddenly realized now, it's the only fundamental joy of gaming that truly matters. And surely this is the fundamental reason that I have been speaking against your transcendental status/perspective for a long time.

Now I have prerequisites and I have even Plato on my side, fuck, it's really like cheating....

zxt1222

Actually, I think I have forgotten my WE8 experience already (when they said WE8 the best, I w ...
mondrovic 发表于 2013-10-28 01:33

所以根本的区别就是看待游戏的态度么，这个是不可能相互说服的，也不是靠说能说服的。

虽然不能认同，但是我倒是能理解你的想法。

至于我的看法也不是用来洗脑的，主要是拿出来讨论的，不被认同也很正常，我也只是尽力去解释，能举实例的我就尽量。我本身也是很享受探索+讨论的过程的

mondrovic

至于“为什么最基本的盘带（或者说人球关系）会自下而上的影响到游戏本质问题”
在这个论坛由于这个话 ...
zxt1222 发表于 2013-10-28 00:55

Ok, yes I remember seeing your view on dribbling previously, I was pretty mesmerized; to sum up my feelings then, it's simply: WTF....

Seriously, I'd have to bring out my new best friend: PRE-REQUISITES, again. It seems that, for you, dribbling is the fundamental prerequisite for the gaming mechanism, and you believe in this so deeply because you've done so many "tests" (remember my mockings on the 2013 post? sorry but I still have to say such tests doesnt endow dribbling with any presiding PRIORITY status) Why? You may ask.Put it simply, because I have Plato on my side now, try to beat him if you can... that's philosophical (seriously, philosophy....). I am not totally teasing here, but the effect of my argument now is really teasing with Plato into the game, I think it's a bit unfair for you now....But isn't this seriously the fundamental and ULTIMATE frame of thinking/observation/analysis we are stepping into if we are heading back to a more sophisticated thinking manner after all(which i now tend to avoid, as a GAMER, in order not to miss the REAL big picture, at least i'd do so in a more extracted manner, which, could be helped by exotic thnking).


Some digression: If we are to humbly agree with Plato, we might even ultimately question the ultimate demand(for a considerable number of GAMERS, ironically) for the FULL SIMULATION OF ALL REAL ELEMENTS of a sports GAME, in an already distorted(time, means of control, means of observation) video GAME. Think of this carefully: You want to get REAL in a fundamentally unreal and philosophically naive GAME-GAME. How does it sound? If this is not paranoid enough to be call schizophrenia, what else should be?...


So now, after demanding your applause to 2013, I am gonna further hijack your mindset by asking you another simple question: Do you agree with Plato?
   

zxt1222

You want to get REAL in a fundamentally unreal and philosophically naive GAME-GAME  X
I want a balanced  one  √
我并不反感，unreal and philosophically naive GAME-soccer-GAME ，热血足球我不反感，全民足球我也不反感，
另一方面，我也不要求足球游戏 absolutely real，而且显然这是不可能的，也是不合理的
两者的平衡问题这样的老生常谈我就不展开了

我只是想说，我的理解中，pes fifa这样的作品的自我定位是“略偏严肃”的，或者说“严肃的比例”不小的。
在这样的前提下，自然会有 “偏娱乐”党和“偏严肃”党的分歧，就和豆浆甜咸党争一样，太自然了。

“游戏体验”这种事情就是唯心的没错
所以我提到“游戏体验”这样主观的部分的时候，通常只说我自己的体会，尽量不去代表其他任何人
而我所拿出来讨论的东西，一般都是尽量选取唯物的部分。

从客观到主观的这个过程经常还是很有意思的一个看点。

mondrovic

You want to get REAL in a fundamentally unreal and philosophically naive GAME-GAME  X
I want a bala ...
zxt1222 发表于 2013-10-28 02:18

You didnt answer my simple question yet, there's vagueness and unneeded discreetness for this issue here of course...Or to put it in another way: HOW WOULD YOU DISAGREE WITH PLATO?


"I want a balanced  one  √", you cant bring in this player now, since BALANCE is our mutual friend....


"我并不反感，unreal and philosophically naive GAME-soccer-GAME ...." Actually, my original elaboration is an extreme argument, just to show the fundamental paradox of gaming-simulation. BUT it doesnt mean I am ready to side with the counter-extreme you have careless deduced... I just want to show the inevitable paradox, and urge whoever taking fancy with it not to take granted too seriously and stubbornly. I dont want to be vague here, I'd love to see REAL SIMULATION as well, but knowing its fundamental paradoxes now, I wouldnt really dare to boast this demand as AUTHORITATIVE.


I am not directly involved with any discussion on Objective or Subjective, and I hope you dont seek refuge in these two.


ALL IN ALL, these all come down to one simple question: PLATO(or our rational reasoning tradition since ancient Greeck time)~

zxt1222

You didnt answer my simple question yet, there's vagueness and unneeded discreetness for thi ...
mondrovic 发表于 2013-10-28 02:37

PLATO is “alive",can convince people of something,but can not be the "benchmark" for everyone.
Communication in PLATO system will be resultless.:bz36:

kckp

哈哈哈~被FIFA那些BUG笑抽了

国米先锋

足球街机游戏肿么能不提我最爱的得点王系列。。。。
    话说那个背包年代，得点王系列是街机厅 ...
dianzhang1983 发表于 2013-10-24 15:29

   经典啊，依稀记得当时的赖皮打法，中路一路头球，顶到对方门前射门~:bz3:还有背摔也很爽！

ooapp11

飞过，:bz69:感觉最新的这一代宣传和实际游戏真的像两种游戏，要是真像宣传那样，肯定是款好游戏！！！feiguo,feiguo:bz69::bz69:~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~                  

ooapp11

飞过，:bz69:感觉最新的这一代宣传和实际游戏真的像两种游戏，要是真像宣传那样，肯定是款好游戏！！！feiguo,feiguo:bz69::bz69:~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~                  

mondrovic

PLATO is “alive",can convince people of something,but can not be the "benchmark" for everyone.
...
zxt1222 发表于 2013-10-28 02:54

   resultless更多是你所乐于见得的局面，其实我认为6，7页上的一些观点交换，似乎已经将这场讨论引上某种小结的道路，但似乎你对我提出的一些观点有些视而不见，或避而不谈，柏拉图或许略显调侃，但如果跳出区区一款游戏，我认为还是很有普遍启示性的，柏拉图对于我而言，一是佐证自己的游戏观，二来也是为了让你能够更为彻底反思自己审视，评判游戏时所选取的视角和身份（之所以要说“更为彻底”，是因为你一直都有些过于固执地坚持自己的那种“非玩家身份”，而用这一视角于其他的玩家《包括我》进行交流，是根本无法达成任何共识的。）
我觉得任何的讨论都应该出一个结果，共识性的东西，具体到我和你的讨论，必然涉及到某一方对另一方的认同（或相互间的某些认同，比如我在你的心路历程之后所表达的一些看法，其实也算是对你的认同），并伴随着对自身观点的某些颠覆和修正，从这个角度而言，我是希望能有一些最终的端倪的，每次看到你草草的遁去，多少还是有些不甘心的。这其中并不是说我一定要让你信服我的观点，我只想要一个结果，或一个倾向性的结论，无论是说服或被说服，无果而终总是会让人扫兴的。

前面我对你的那些测试“大前提”予以了质疑，我认为即便你非常努力，非常投入，但如果要去过细推敲，那些自下而上测试所得出的一些结论，是很难站住脚的。KONAMI或FIFA恐怕都不可能将盘带作为游戏设计的根本出发点，这应该是个基本合理的理性逻辑推断，就像你画画不可能先画眼睛，再勾轮廓，是一样的道理。你不能仅仅用“很多测试”就把盘带奉为终极重点，首先你应该考量自己单枪匹马的技术能力是否具备这样的“专业结构性评测”的资格（这点还需要我来质疑么？），其次再考察自己的一些方法论。总而言之，我认为你的大前提有些太信以为真了，我不是说你那些发现和体会都是完全不合理的，但至少他们能否作为大前提，这点需要你去反思一下。

我认为评判一款足球游戏，大前提始终应该是基于“人-人对战时的游戏体验（游戏性，完整性，平衡性，丰富性）”。我不想去涉及太多太具体的技术环节（我根本就不懂游戏制作的专业环节），但作为一个足球游戏玩家，将整体性的游戏体验，尤其是对战时的游戏体验作为一个基本前提，这难道不是更为本分合理的情景么？你该怎样去否定这样的大前提呢？

如果我还需要退一步，那么我可以说，如果以你的游戏方式（单机，单项测试为主，我斗胆猜测你每作的人-人对战不超过50场？）和视角为出发点，那么你或许可以自圆其说，但这样的方式和视角根本不具备任何的普遍性，其本身所藏匿的某种“超越性”更是缺乏坚实的依据，本身就成为了某种“姿态”而非观点的注解，因此无论至上而下或是至下而上，于我而言，都无法感到信服，或许在一些个别的观点上，我能够认同，但基于大前提的考察，大多数时候，我对你很多见解的整体感受是非常别扭的。

dianzhang1983

柏拉图的游戏观与爱情观都属于“极度纯洁的精神信仰”，其本质是崇尚处于同一个矛盾空间的对立双方能产生最超乎寻常的“隔空滞后性交流”，其中最经典的代表性名言莫过于“世界上最遥远的距离就是我站在你旁边，而你不知道我深深爱着你”。。。这种稍带受虐倾向的爱情美学一直是古希腊高级哲学思想的典型代表之一，不过，m的重点在于强调精神追求的重要性，游戏的本质应该是人与人之间获得童贞般最原始的快乐，如果失去快乐，我为什么要去游戏？稍带唯心主义的论断，作为玩家来说这点当然没错。
   不过z神的精神信仰明显是建立在“寻找到快乐原点”基础上，也就是跳开了人性本能的自我意识，去探索游戏产生快乐的基本变量，甚至热衷于试图通过数据研究来量化快乐的定义，这是存在主义的萌芽阶段，显然要做到这一步必定充满了重重困难和多方的质疑，人也许可以了解所有一切，但最困难的就是真正了解自己，希望z神继续努力，早日成为实况论坛的思想之神。。

zxt1222

柏拉图的游戏观与爱情观都属于“极度纯洁的精神信仰”，其本质是崇尚处于同一个矛盾空间的对立双方能产生最 ...
dianzhang1983 发表于 2013-10-28 20:34

神可是贬义词啊，千万别扣给我:bz36: